Transformers have become the de facto architecture for a wide range of machine learning tasks, particularly in large language models (LLMs). Despite their remarkable performance, many challenges remain in training deep transformer networks, especially regarding the position of the layer normalization. While Pre-Norm structures facilitate more stable training owing to their stronger identity path, they often lead to suboptimal performance compared to Post-Norm. In this paper, we propose HybridNorm, a simple yet effective hybrid normalization strategy that integrates the advantages of both Pre-Norm and Post-Norm. Specifically, HybridNorm employs QKV normalization within the attention mechanism and Post-Norm in the feed-forward network (FFN) of each transformer block. We provide both theoretical insights and empirical evidence to demonstrate that HybridNorm improves the gradient flow and the model robustness. Extensive experiments on large-scale transformer models, including both dense and sparse variants, show that HybridNorm consistently outperforms both Pre-Norm and Post-Norm approaches across multiple benchmarks.

Transformers have become the de facto architecture for a wide range of machine learning tasks, particularly in large language models (LLMs). Despite their remarkable performance, challenges remain in training deep transformer networks, especially regarding the location of layer normalization. While Pre-Norm structures facilitate easier training due to their more prominent identity path, they often yield suboptimal performance compared to Post-Norm. In this paper, we propose $\textbf{HybridNorm}$, a straightforward yet effective hybrid normalization strategy that integrates the advantages of both Pre-Norm and Post-Norm approaches. Specifically, HybridNorm employs QKV normalization within the attention mechanism and Post-Norm in the feed-forward network (FFN) of each transformer block. This design not only stabilizes training but also enhances performance, particularly in the context of LLMs. Comprehensive experiments in both dense and sparse architectures show that HybridNorm consistently outperforms both Pre-Norm and Post-Norm approaches, achieving state-of-the-art results across various benchmarks. These findings highlight the potential of HybridNorm as a more stable and effective technique for improving the training and performance of deep transformer models. %Code will be made publicly available. Code is available at https://github.com/BryceZhuo/HybridNorm.

Training stability is a persistent challenge in the pre-training of large language models (LLMs), particularly for architectures such as Post-Norm Transformers, which are prone to gradient explosion and dissipation. In this paper, we propose Scale-Distribution Decoupling (SDD), a novel approach that stabilizes training by explicitly decoupling the scale and distribution of the weight matrix in fully-connected layers. SDD applies a normalization mechanism to regulate activations and a learnable scaling vector to maintain well-conditioned gradients, effectively preventing $\textbf{gradient explosion and dissipation}$. This separation improves optimization efficiency, particularly in deep networks, by ensuring stable gradient propagation. Experimental results demonstrate that our method stabilizes training across various LLM architectures and outperforms existing techniques in different normalization configurations. Furthermore, the proposed method is lightweight and compatible with existing frameworks, making it a practical solution for stabilizing LLM training. Code is available at https://github.com/kaihemo/SDD.

Recent works have shown that transformers can solve contextual reasoning tasks by internally executing computational graphs called circuits. Circuits often use attention to logically match information from subspaces of the representation, e.g. using position-in-sequence to identify the previous token. In this work, we consider a semantic subspace to be any independent subspace of the latent representation that can fully determine an attention distribution. We show that Pre-Norm, the placement of normalisation layer used by state-of-the-art transformers, violates this ability unless the model learns a strict representation structure of orthogonal spheres. This is because it causes linear subspaces to interfere through their common normalisation factor. Theoretically, we analyse circuit stability by modelling this interference as random noise on the $L_2$-norms of the query/key/value vectors, predicting a phenomenon of circuit collapse when sparse-attention shifts to a different token. Empirically, we investigate the sensitivity of real-world models trained for mathematical addition, observing a 1% rate of circuit collapse when the norms are artificially perturbed by $\lesssim$10%. We contrast Pre-Norm with QKV-Norm, which places normalisation after the attention head's linear operators. Theoretically this relaxes the representational constraints. Empirically we observe comparable in-distribution but worse out-of-distribution performance.